Friday, May 6, 2011

Case Plays: How Many Outs? (Answered)

This Case Play has been completed. Congratulations to UEFL League Members BrooklynUmp, kickersrule, and RichMSN for correctly answering both parts of the posted play. mtn335, cyclone14, sachmet, clement30, TonyTheRed, and josh7377 answered (a), but not (b), correctly. Several non-league participants also were successful in answering various parts correctly. The correct response is:

(a) B1 is out and the ball is dead. R2 is awarded home plate. Part (a) is fairly straightforward. Rule 7.05(g).
(b) B1 is out and the ball is dead. R2 is awarded home plate. Part (b) is not as straightforward as (a), and led to some confusion. When F3 (with the ball in his possession) deliberately enters DBT, such as a Bench (Rule 2.00 FOUL TERRITORY, OBR DIAGRAM #1), the ball is dead (Rule 7.05(f) is the closest direct citation). Rule 2.00 LEGAL and Rule 2.00 "TIME" specify that a ball leaving the playing area is a dead ball if not excepted by rule. Rule 7.04(c) is inapplicable; F3 did not fall into a bench while attempting to catch a fly ball. Rule 5.10(f), which provides for keeping a play alive while a fielder steps into a bench (herein, 'the momentum exception'), refers to a fielder stepping into a bench in concert with the process of making a catch of a fly ball. The momentum exception to Rule 5.10(f) applies only to a fly ball as specified by rule; a fly ball by rule must be a batted ball and momentum is obtained by being actively engaged in a play (Rule 2.00 FLY BALL). As observed in the video, F3 has made the catch far, far in advance of approaching the bench and is not actively engaged in a play. Furthermore, a bench is the area reserved for (among others) team members when they are not actively engaged on the playing field; any player entering a bench, except as provided by rule, may be considered not actively engaged on the playing field, and therefore, may not be in possession of a live ball (Rule 2.00 BENCH, RULE 2.00 DEAD BALL).

In responding to this Case Play, RichMSN mentioned The 2011 BRD: Baseball Rule Differences. The BRD is an excellent rules resource for NFHS, NCAA, and pro rules. I have added a link to Amazon, which has this book in stock. If you are looking for a baseball rules resource that goes beyond the surface, I recommend this book.

2 Points Added to:
kickersrule and RichMSN are now tied for 16th place in the UEFL with 0 points.
BrooklynUmp is now in 31st place in the UEFL with -1 points.

1 Point Added to:
mtn335 is now in 3rd place in the UEFL with 5 points.
cyclone14 is now tied for 4th place in the UEFL with 4 points.
sachmet is now in 10th place in the UEFL with 2 points.
clement 30 and TonyTheRed are now tied for 11th place in the UEFL with 1 point.
josh7377 is now tied for 32nd place in the UEFL with -2 points.

Thank you for participating in this Case Play and congratulations to those who responded correctly. Stay tuned for further Case Plays. The original Case Play post has been reproduced below.

Pursuant to UEFL Rule 4.f., this Case Play is open for 48 hours from the time of this post (5/4/11 at 12:00AM). During this time, all Case Play responses will remain in moderation (screened or invisible) until the 48 hour submission period is closed. To receive full point(s) credit, you must answer the following scenario correctly, including any relevant MLB Rule(s) and all relevant results of the play after applying said rule(s).

Video: http://mlb.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=14442967

In the top of the 3rd inning, with one out and a runner on second base, B1 hits a ground ball to F6, who throws to F3 for the second out of the inning. Thinking instead that the inning is over, F3 begins to leave the field. F3 either (a) tosses the ball into the stands or (b) takes the ball with him into the dugout before realizing his error, upon which he reemerges from the dugout with the ball still in his glove. For each part of this scenario, determine the correct result of the play, how play will resume, and the basis on which you reached that decision (cite your rule[s]). (1pt for [a], 1 pt for [b]).

Consult the UEFL Rulebook for further information regarding Rule 4.f and Case Plays.

20 comments :

Tony Hendrix said...

a) runner scores. rule 7.05(g)

b) the ball is in play. Rule 7.05(g) specifically refers to a thrown ball. Although 5.10(f) refers to a fielder catching a fly ball, the intent is clear that a voluntary step into the dugout does not constitute a reason to call time.

TonyTheRed

Anonymous said...

josh7377 answer--

a. R1 from second scores. Rule 7.05g...a runner is awarded 2 bases from the time of the throw when the second play in the infield results in the thrown ball ending up in dead ball territory. Play resumes with 2 outs and a run in.

b. Provided F3 didn't fall down when he entered the dugout, then per 7.04c, R1 stays at second. Rule 7.04c provides that after a legal catch is made (the out at first) and the fielder enters the dugout, there is NO penalty unless he "falls down".

Mike said...

In (a) the runner on 3rd scores..cause the ball went into out of play area, this is actually a 2 base award from the time of the throw.

(b) same as above 2 base award time of throw.

OBR rule 7.05g is the ruling.. and play resumes when the pitcher has the ball on the rubber and the Plate umpire says " play"

BrooklynUmp said...

The answers for both (a) and (b) are the same. Once the ball is tossed or taken into dead ball territory, the ball is dead. It would be the same as if the ball had been thrown into the stands. Since there was a runner on second base, pursuant to the rules stated below, the runner on second base is awarded home. The ball is not put back into play until the pitcher steps on the rubber with possession of the ball.

7.05 Each runner including the batter-runner may, without liability to be put out,
advance...
(f) Two bases, if a fair ball bounces or is deflected into the stands outside the first or
third base foul lines; or if it goes through or under a field fence, or through or under
a scoreboard, or through or under shrubbery or vines on the fence; or if it sticks in
such fence, scoreboard, shrubbery or vines;
(g) Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the
stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or
under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop,
or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead.
When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such
bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was
pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the
runners at the time the wild throw was made;

Pete Krawczyk said...

[Commenter's note: I'm expanding on my previous submission; if this works, please remove my old comment and replace with this one. Since Blogger seems to insist on using my Google account for this, my username is "sachmet".]

Scenario A:
F3 throws the ball in stands; all runners advance two bases due to 7.05.g from the base they occupied at the time the ball left the fielder's hand. Thus, the runner on second base scores. Game resumes with two outs, no runners on base, and B2 at bat.

Rule 7.05.g specifically states for this case that the runners shall advance "[t]wo bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands… The ball is dead. … [T]he umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time … when the throw actually left the player’s hand and not when the thrown ball … goes out of play into the stands."

Scenario A most recently happened on July 12, 2009 during MIN@CHC, when Milton Bradley (OF, CHC) threw a caught fly ball into the stands with only 2 out. Runner on third was awarded home, runner on first was awarded third. Video: http://www.mlb.com/video/play.jsp?content_id=5008757 Retrosheet: http://www.retrosheet.org/boxesetc/2009/B06120CHN2009.htm

Scenario B: F3 goes into dugout; ball is live due to 5.10.f, all runners advance at own peril. Thus, the runner on second base may choose to advance to third or home at risk of being thrown out. If he is not thrown out, B2 will be due up to bat with 2 out, and a runner on second, third, or with a run scored. If the runner is thrown out, B2 will be due up at the top of the fourth inning.

Rule 5.10.f states for this case that "[i]f a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in
play and runners may advance at their own peril." Since the ball never left the glove, it cannot be considered a wild throw, which would fall under Rule 7.05.g per above.

Jon Terry said...

No points for me, I'm not in the league. But if I were on the field, I would think that in either case, play must stop when the ball leaves the field of play. Sorry, no merry-go-round running. Each baserunner would get one base.

I'll go find my rulebook now and see what it says! ;-)

mtn335 said...

(a) The ball is dead. R2 is awarded home plate (two base award). R2 scores. Play resumes with the subsequent at-bat of B2, two outs, bases empty. Official Baseball Rules 7.05(g).

(b) The ball remains live and R2 may advance at his own peril. If F3 falls while in the dugout, then the ball is dead and R2 is awarded one base from the base he last legally touched at the time that F3 fell. In either case, play resumes with the subsequent at-bat of B2, two outs. Official Baseball Rules 5.10(f), 7.04(c) Comment.

Anonymous said...

A) The ball is dead and the runner gets two bases from the time of the throw, R2 will get home.

Rule 7.05g:

Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the stands, or into a bench (whether or not the ball rebounds into the field), or over or under or through a field fence, or on a slanting part of the screen above the backstop, or remains in the meshes of a wire screen protecting spectators. The ball is dead. When such wild throw is the first play by an infielder, the umpire, in awarding such
bases, shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the ball was pitched; in all other cases the umpire shall be governed by the position of the runners at the time the wild throw was made;

B) The ball remains live and no bases are awarded because the fielder went into dead ball territory with the ball while maintaining control of his body.

Rule 5.10f:

When a fielder, after catching a fly ball, falls into a bench or stand, or falls across ropes into a crowd when spectators are on the field. As pertains to runners, the provisions of 7.04(c) shall prevail.

If a fielder after making a catch steps into a bench, but does not fall, the ball is in play and runners may advance at their own peril.

Anonymous said...

From RichMSN:

(a) Award R2 home. 7.05(g), 2 bases from the time of the throw. 2 outs, bases empty, 1 run scored.

(b) No award. 6.05(a) and the (relatively new) universal ground rules. In OBR, a ball can be carried into dead ball territory, including a dugout.

It's only a dead ball if a batted ball is caught in a dugout or if a player falls after a catch into a dugout or other DBT. Also, F3 maintained control of the baseball in DBT. Assuming R2 stayed at second on the play, play will resume with R2 and 2 outs.

kickersrule said...

In both cases the runners on base get 2 bases at the time he either threw the ball in the stands or entered the dugout. since the runner was on 2nd base at the time he would of scored. and the inning would of continued with 2 outs and no one on base.

Anonymous said...

User: clement30

(a): Fielder tosses ball into stands, via rule 7.05 (g): Two bases when, with no spectators on the playing field, a thrown ball goes into the
stands.
(b): 7.04 (c) Comment seems to indicate someting similar, with a player going into the dugout with the ball in possession. Ball dead. Umpires assign bases based off their judgement. Rule 7.04(c) Comment: If a fielder, after having made a legal catch, should fall into a stand or
among spectators or into the dugout or any other out-of-play area while in possession of the ball after
making a legal catch, or fall while in the dugout after making a legal catch, the ball is dead and each
runner shall advance one base, without liability to be put out, from his last legally touched base at the
time the fielder fell into, or in, such out-of-play area.

cyclone14 said...

a) Once the ball is tossed into the stands, 'Time' is called and the ball is dead. The runner is entitled to advance two bases from the time the ball was thrown (i.e. released by the first baseman) into the stands, as this is considered the second throw by an infielder. Rule 7.05g

b) Once the player enters the dugout after making a legal catch in play, 'Time' is called and the ball is dead. The runner who started the play at second is entitled to advance one base. Rules 5.10f, 7.04c

Anonymous said...

From RichMSN:

I'd like to revise my answer to B.

As it's not a catch of a fair or foul fly ball, 6.05(a) doesn't apply. There aren't any good references for this specific play, so I'll stick with 7.05(g) and award two bases from the time that F3 deliberately/intentionally steps into the dugout.

The only good reference I have probably wouldn't be accepted here -- it's in the 2011 Baseball Rules Differences by Carl Childress. It says that if the fielder deliberately entered DBT, the umpire should kill the ball and award two bases from the time of the intentional act.

And there's no doubt that the fielder intentionally entered DBT (the dugout) even though he did so because he believed there were three outs.

So I'd award (a) and (b) the same. Score R2, bases empty, 2 outs.

Tony Hendrix said...

If someone had asked this question at umpire school, Brian Gorman would have said, "Idiot! Nobody keeps the ball and carries it in the dugout after the third out! Next!!"

Tony Hendrix said...

It's a bit presumptuous to rule on the correctness of part B since lacking an actual rule (and the closest related rule indicates the opposite of your conclusion) this would fall under the "Umpire Judgement" rule 9.01(c).

Anonymous said...

Which rule interpretation specifically says that the ball is dead if a fielder delib. takes the ball into DBT. Is it in the MiLB Interp manual?

Gil "CASD" said...

Again, the main reason 5.10(f), 6.05(a) Comment, 7.04(c) do not apply is that F3 is not attempting to catch a fly ball, which by rule, must be a batted ball. Therefore, unless excepted by rule, a ball entering dead ball territory (by means of a throw, hit, or physical transport) must be a dead ball at the point in time that the ball enters dead ball territory. This is a basic baseball rule, as well as a universal ground rule.

By stepping "into the dugout," as written in (b), F3 has passed the top step (lip) of the dugout and entered dead ball territory. See Diagram #1.

Jon Terry said...

I wonder about the 'two-base' part. A - the ball isn't being thrown away, so why two bases? B - I'm reading this and assuming that the runner went to third after the throw to first, so a one base award would still score him.

Gil "CASD" said...

@Jon Terry, (a) Under 7.05(g), you have a two base award for a throw which goes "over... a field fence." Rule 2.00 THROW specifies that a throw is the act of "propelling the ball with the hand and arm to a given objective..." The objective here is getting the ball to the stands, which is achieved... not exactly a smart objective, but it does qualify as a throw by rule. (b) I opted to leave out R2's whereabouts in the Case Play. Ultimately, he is awarded two bases under the "spirit of the rule" of 7.05(f) and (g), but again, we're not dealing with a fly ball, much less the act of making a catch, so we have to refer to the definitions of 2.00 Dead Ball, Legal, and "Time." Combining all of that, we get a dead ball and a two base award; however, you would be rewarded for scoring the run based on the premise of a one base award for a runner who achieved third base. Recall UEFL Rule 6.b.ii.f.1, which basically states that reasoning for such calls "shall not affect the determination of Quality of Correctness. Quality of Correctness is governed by the (in)correctness of the call made [and corresponding results], not by the quality of reasoning given for such a call."

Jim said...

It's plays like this that make me think that sometimes knowing less is better for you. I knew for sure that you get 2 bases on a thrown ball, and I would assume you get two bases for a fielder taking a ball out of play. I'm not sure about the rules, but it would just make sense that you get 2 bases on both plays.

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